an interview with Izzy Gesell

by Donald B. Ardell, Ph. D.

Izzy Gesell, a "humor & creativity coach," is from Brooklyn NY (where a sense of humor is a survival skill). He has a BA in psychology, an MS in education and a P (that's 1/3 of a Ph.D). He has mixed humor and communication skills for many years as a teacher, stand-up comedian and corporate trainer. He is the author of Playing Along: Group Learning Activities Borrowed From Improvisation Theater. He is also the originator of INTERNATIONAL MOMENT OF LAUGHTER DAY, celebrated on April 14th. This day is aimed at getting everyone to recognize the physical, emotional and spiritual power of laughter. He can be reached at (413) 586-2634 (Fax 413-585-0407); his website is at http://www.izzyg.com/

Don: Izzy, it's well established that men & women communicate in different ways. You reviewed style differences, suggested the need for more understanding, and made a case for compassion. Aren't many of the communication problems that John Gray belabored in "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" attributable more to personality clashes between unique individuals than inherent differences between all men and women? Personally, I don't think all women are always trying to change men, nor do I believe all men are afraid of anger in women, as you suggested. My experience is that some women (and men) use materials from Gray and others to justify qualities rather than to assess and, if useful, modify them.

Izzy: Don, much as I'd love to disagree with you, I think you have a point. But, like a point, it's rather tiny. Of course, when you use words like all or always to make that point, it's impossible to disagree with you! I think the real value in the gender/communication exploration lies in folks realizing some traits, behaviors, or beliefs that may be true about themselves rather than another person or gender in general.

For example, Gray does note what men dislike most about women is that women often try to change us. In my workshops, many guys nod at this fact and bemoan the realization, for example, that they can't easily go out in ratty-looking clothes. Women seem to agree that this is done, yet, have what they consider to be a valid reason -- namely, that these particular men will realize how bad they look. One way around the communication gap in this case is for women to understand that these men know how they look. They just don't care. Traditionally, it was the man's job to earn the money to put the clothes on the family's back. The woman's job was to make sure the family looked good in those clothes. So, women can look at why they do this and realize that they, much more than men, care how society judges their ability to make their family look cared for.

Wellness is all about self-knowledge and the opportunity to question assumptions about behavior. Since we are responsible for our actions, and only our actions, this gender stuff is really about questioning our own behavior. The stereotypes allow us the chance to observe, "Hmmmm, am I like that?" or to think something like, "Wow, I have been making assumptions about others. Is that thinking serving me well?"

Don: I was also skeptical of the idea of women in their forties being wounded, by fate, by past lovers, by their situation as you put it. Get real. This seems to me a dreadful generalization. No doubt some women in this age group have these wounds, but no more so than men and women in any other group -- and certainly not most. Aren't you being a bit of an enabler for some women, telling them, in effect," It's all right, Sweetie, you're in your forties and, after all, nearly all ladies in this cohort are basket cases?"

Izzy: I agree with you here. It was a tabloid-type shot at filling the space in the handout. The opportunity here is to look at why we go into relationships and what our expectations are about what the other brings or is going to fix. The old saw that, "women marry men hoping they'll change, men marry women hoping they won't -- both are disappointed" goes to a core issue in relationships. That is, how much acceptance of another can we deal with without wanting to fix them, or more precisely, ourselves through them?

Don: You also said that women are afraid to be criticized by society, that they face a dilemma in having to choose to give prime attention to work or family. Well, isn't that true for men, as well? We all have to make choices, and a healthy person learns early on that you can't have it all, now or later. Life is filled with choices. Get used to it, make your best choices based on critical thinking and all the rest and move on with your life. Such advice is as useful for men as for women, in my view.

Izzy: I agree with you about choices and individual responsibility. Again, I believe these theories about gender are useful precisely when each of us looks at where we are in relation to the stereotype so we can deepen our understanding of our own habits and patterns that may well have been with us for many years without being questioned. We can then own up to our own stuff while at the same time understand what may be driving the other person.

The stereotypes were intended to stimulate critical thinking. I believe what bothers us most about others' behavior is a pointer to stuff we don't like about ourselves. Wellness is nothing but personal choice and self-responsibility.

Don: Well, Iz, we can agree that men and women are well advised to be aware of cultural influences and other factors that affect communication patterns. We might not give equal weight to gender as the key variable. However, I do agree with your communications goal that we learn how to shape productive connections with other people. And, that feeling heard and acknowledged are keys to this objective.

January 2001